structured content reuse

[Mirko Bulinsky]

CMSers!
Does anybody has a comment on this:?
Ann Rocklay’s "Managing Enterprise Content", chapter "Fundamental concepts
of reuse" explains exactly how my client would like to reuse content within
its Enterprise Document Management System (EDM). For opportunistic reusing
he wants to work with Word 2003 since this is the enterprise standard.
I was exploring the marked for products, plugins or SDK’s enabling the usage
of Word as a document composer.
Since document composing is a very common and basic task within EDM, most of
the vendors declare that they can do this, even with the usage of Word. A
closer look reveals: none of them can do it!
That surprises me. Word is probably the most widely used editing front end
and the methods of reuse, described in Ann’s book are crucial within
authoring complex documents. Is there no marked for this? Are there no EDM
products using Word as editing and composing tool this way?
Thanks for all inputs!
Mirko


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[Robert Koberg]

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
CMSers!
Does anybody has a comment on this:?
Ann Rocklay’s "Managing Enterprise Content", chapter "Fundamental concepts
of reuse" explains exactly how my client would like to reuse content within
its Enterprise Document Management System (EDM).

haven't read it, but...

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
For opportunistic reusing
he wants to work with Word 2003 since this is the enterprise standard.
I was exploring the marked for products, plugins or SDK’s enabling the usage
of Word as a document composer.
Since document composing is a very common and basic task within EDM, most of
the vendors declare that they can do this, even with the usage of Word. A
closer look reveals: none of them can do it!

look closer. Any content that conforms to a valid XML Schema can be
edited in MS Word 2003 (enterprise edition). Personally, I think there
are better UIs... Since you did not mention XML Schema I think you need
to do a little more homework.

Alternatively, authors could write in Word (any version). And the vendor
can use MSWord to convert it to XML and transform it to a more usable
structure; which has been more common for us. I don't know of any of our
clients who have upgraded to MSWord 2003.

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
That surprises me. Word is probably the most widely used editing front end
and the methods of reuse, described in Ann’s book are crucial within
authoring complex documents. Is there no marked for this?

If you mean 'market' -- not yet, as far as I have seen.

-Rob

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
Are there no EDM
products using Word as editing and composing tool this way?
Thanks for all inputs!
Mirko

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[Ann Rockley]

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
my client would like to reuse content within
its Enterprise Document Management System (EDM). For opportunistic reusing
he wants to work with Word 2003 since this is the enterprise standard.
I was exploring the marked for products, plugins or SDK's enabling the usage
of Word as a document composer.
Since document composing is a very common and basic task within EDM, most of
the vendors declare that they can do this, even with the usage of Word. A
closer look reveals: none of them can do it!
That surprises me. Word is probably the most widely used editing front end
and the methods of reuse, described in Ann's book are crucial within
authoring complex documents. Is there no marked for this? Are there no EDM
products using Word as editing and composing tool this way?

All CMS will work with Word from a BLOB perspective (binary large object).
In other words they can store a Word file and control it. They can also
typically transform it into something else like HTML. However, the majority
do not give authors access to the content that makes up the content of the
file (e.g., sub-sections). The only way to reuse the content is to check
the whole content out, copy the piece of information that is of interest
and check it back in along with your new document that contains the reused
content. The problem with this is that the second document is controlled as
a document and the content you reused is not tracked and controlled only
the whole document is.

This is not the fault of the CMS, it is really the fault of the way that
Word files are typically authored, as a single document with very little
markup that identifies the content (e.g., there is a lot of "Normal" styled
text) that does not provide enough information to the CMS to enable it to
"chunk" the content into separate elements that can be controlled and
tracked. If the content is appropriately identified (e.g., specific style
tags like Caution, Summary) some CMS will enable you to set up a "bursting"
map that breaks up the Word file as it is stored. Once content is burst
into element parts you can reuse any of the elements and control and track
the elements.

However, that being said, Word 2003 now accommodates XML Schemas. XML does
enable you to create structured content whose elements can be easily
identified by your Schema and therefore stored individually in your CMS.
This means that current users of Word will need to move to XML and
restructure their documents appropriately. This could be an issue if you
have a lot of legacy information. There are also Word to XML converters
that will do some conversion of legacy documents, but you will still have
to do some manual work to move it from unstructured to structured content
that provides more intelligence about the document.

If you are interested in then taking your Word documents and creating
complex documents like manuals that have a TOC, multiple sequential
sections, and an index, I would look at publications oriented CMS. Most XML
native CMS are publications oriented, though they can also support output
to web sites (some better than others). You may need to integrate a
sophisticated delivery tool that enables you to do this.

Most of the high-end ECM systems (Documentum, Stellent, FileNet) handle
Word well, but they do not handle very granular content (small size
elements) well. You will need to create larger elements (though they can be
much smaller than a document) or use a lot of nested reuse.

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
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_____________________________

The Rockley Bulletin addresses issues of importance to those interested in
content management, content reuse, new tools and technologies, resources,
strategies, best practices and more. http://www.rockley.com/Bulletin.htm

"Managing Enterprise Content: A Unified Content Strategy" (ISBN 0735713065)
by Ann Rockley with Pamela Kostur and Steve Manning is now available from
amazon.com or amazon.ca. For more information visit
www.managingenterprisecontent.com.

www.rockley.com, 905-415-1885


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[Eoin Campbell]

I am also constantly amazed at the lack of support for importing
Word content into Web CMSs. The CMS vendors all seem to believe their
own marketing hype that their through-the-web form-based HTML editors
are "WYSIWYG" and "Word-like".
They also seem to assume that most content is initially authored inside
the CMS environment, whereas the opposite is more generally the case.
Content can be pasted from Word into most TTW editors, but the resulting markup
quality is abominable.

The technology required to convert Word into good quality HTML isn't rocket science,
but the philosophy of allowing authors to use their standard desktop word-processing tool,
and providing a supportive structured web page authoring environment within that tool,
seems to be much less common than you would expect.

All CMS vendors seem to have chosen to offer TTW editors, but on closer analysis,
I have found that many of them have also had to develop VBA macros for their clients,
to allow them to convert existing material into web format.
They don't seem to have followed this obvious client demand to its logical conclusion,
and developed a standard facility to import Word content into their products without
loss of structure/presentation information.

<plug>
Naturally, spotting this gap in the market, we have developed a product range which is
designed to support authoring of web pages using Word as the editor,
and converting into structured, accessible HTML.

See YAWC Pro (www.yawcpro.com) a plug-in for Word on Windows,
or YAWC Online (www.yawconline.com) an online Word to HTML conversion service.
We also hope to have a stand-alone, cross-platform (Linux/Windows) conversion
server shortly.
</plug>

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
Does anybody has a comment on this:?
Ann Rocklay�s "Managing Enterprise Content", chapter "Fundamental concepts
of reuse" explains exactly how my client would like to reuse content within
its Enterprise Document Management System (EDM). For opportunistic reusing
he wants to work with Word 2003 since this is the enterprise standard.
I was exploring the marked for products, plugins or SDK�s enabling the usage
of Word as a document composer.
Since document composing is a very common and basic task within EDM, most of
the vendors declare that they can do this, even with the usage of Word. A
closer look reveals: none of them can do it!
That surprises me. Word is probably the most widely used editing front end
and the methods of reuse, described in Ann�s book are crucial within
authoring complex documents. Is there no marked for this? Are there no EDM
products using Word as editing and composing tool this way?

--
Eoin Campbell, Technical Director, XML Workshop Ltd,
10 Greenmount Industrial Estate, Harolds Cross, Dublin 12, IRELAND.
Email: ecampbell-***@public.gmane.org
Phone: [phone]; Fax: [phone]
Web: http://www.xmlw.ie
YAWC Online: http://www.yawconline.com/
YAWC Pro: http://www.yawcpro.com/


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[Grant Malcolm]

Post by Eoin Campbell
I am also constantly amazed at the lack of support for importing
Word content into Web CMSs. The CMS vendors all seem to believe their
own marketing hype that their through-the-web form-based HTML editors
are "WYSIWYG" and "Word-like".
They also seem to assume that most content is initially authored inside
the CMS environment, whereas the opposite is more generally the case.

I share your frustration and our experience matches your own. However,
we're actively seeking to turn many of our publishing processes around.

Our situation is probably not that dissimilar to most universities in
that there is a growing recognition that most of our clients interact
with our website as a first preference rather than resorting to our
printed publications. This increasingly important population has not
been well served by priority being given to print publishing processes
over preparation of content for the web.

Some of our web content is still initially authored in word processing
applications, but we're highlighting the importance of the web, skilling
authors to write for the medium, providing a CMS to facilitate their
work and utilities to assist them in exporting content to print.

Cheers
Grant
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
University Website Co-ordinator, University Communication Services
The University of Western Australia
35 Stirling Highway, CRAWLEY WA 6009
Email: grant.malcolm-***@public.gmane.org Phone: [phone]


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[Rob DeFelice]

Guys

You need to take a look at FatWire Content Server. It
gives you the choice of web forms or Word as the
authoring tool. You can even drag and drop entire
documents that have been contructed elsewhere (even
from a DM system for complex documents)if you want
them managed in that way.

Rob

Post by Eoin Campbell

Post by Eoin Campbell
I am also constantly amazed at the lack of support

for importing

Post by Eoin Campbell
Word content into Web CMSs. The CMS vendors all

seem to believe their

Post by Eoin Campbell
own marketing hype that their through-the-web

form-based HTML editors

Post by Eoin Campbell
are "WYSIWYG" and "Word-like".
They also seem to assume that most content is

initially authored inside

Post by Eoin Campbell
the CMS environment, whereas the opposite is more

generally the case.
I share your frustration and our experience matches
your own. However,
we're actively seeking to turn many of our
publishing processes around.
Our situation is probably not that dissimilar to
most universities in
that there is a growing recognition that most of our
clients interact
with our website as a first preference rather than
resorting to our
printed publications. This increasingly important
population has not
been well served by priority being given to print
publishing processes
over preparation of content for the web.
Some of our web content is still initially authored
in word processing
applications, but we're highlighting the importance
of the web, skilling
authors to write for the medium, providing a CMS to
facilitate their
work and utilities to assist them in exporting
content to print.
Cheers
Grant
--

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by Eoin Campbell
University Website Co-ordinator, University
Communication Services
The University of Western Australia
35 Stirling Highway, CRAWLEY WA 6009
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[Ann Rockley]

Post by Grant Malcolm
Our situation is probably not that dissimilar to most universities in
that there is a growing recognition that most of our clients interact
with our website as a first preference rather than resorting to our
printed publications. This increasingly important population has not
been well served by priority being given to print publishing processes
over preparation of content for the web.
Some of our web content is still initially authored in word processing
applications, but we're highlighting the importance of the web, skilling
authors to write for the medium, providing a CMS to facilitate their
work and utilities to assist them in exporting content to print.

I agree that more and more the web becomes a key vehicle for communication
and sometimes the sole vehicle. However, when multiple media (e.g., paper
and web) are required I believe it is important to create content separate
from format. Formats like XML help us to do this. However, authors do have
to learn to write differently and designers need to put a great deal of
effort into designing effective content structures that can be
appropriately and effectively displayed regardless of the media.

You are correct that word processors tend to make authors think "paper" as
we author while web/HTML editors make us think "web" as we author. We
really need a third type of editor that lets us think content. This doesn't
really exist yet. Forms come the closest, but they do not work well for
complex granular content.

Post by Grant Malcolm
Cheers
Grant
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
University Website Co-ordinator, University Communication Services
The University of Western Australia
35 Stirling Highway, CRAWLEY WA 6009
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_____________________________

The Rockley Bulletin addresses issues of importance to those interested in
content management, content reuse, new tools and technologies, resources,
strategies, best practices and more. http://www.rockley.com/Bulletin.htm

"Managing Enterprise Content: A Unified Content Strategy" (ISBN 0735713065)
by Ann Rockley with Pamela Kostur and Steve Manning is now available from
amazon.com or amazon.ca. For more information visit
www.managingenterprisecontent.com.

www.rockley.com, 905-415-1885


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[David Wheeler]

Post by Ann Rockley
You are correct that word processors tend to make authors think
"paper" as we author while web/HTML editors make us think "web" as we
author. We really need a third type of editor that lets us think
content. This doesn't really exist yet. Forms come the closest, but
they do not work well for complex granular content.

I think that this states the biggest issue with content management
succinctly and precisely. The CMS I work on, Bricolage, uses forms to
enforce the idea that content is just content, independent of
presentation. But we all know the issues inherent with this
approach--and they aren't limited to just those that Ann cites.

I'd be _very_ curious to know if anyone has any ideas about this "third
type of editor." But I think it might require a paradigm shift in the
way people think about content before it could come about. People think
"paper" because that's where they're used to seeing content: in books,
newspapers, magazines, etc. Even for online content, many people will
print out pages of any significant size to read them, rather than read
them on screen.

I think that this paradigm will only come about when Online publishing
is fully integrated into the majority of publishing environments. In
most publishing environments, the online team is full of techies who
convert content from the print side for publication on the Web, rather
than full of editors who simply write content. Until such integration
occurs, until editors are hired to "write content" rather than
"contribute to a [print] magazine or newspaper," I don't think that
this paradigm will come to pass.

Regards,

David


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[Mirko Bulinsky]

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
my client would like to reuse content within
its Enterprise Document Management System (EDM). For opportunistic reusing
he wants to work with Word 2003 since this is the enterprise standard.
I was exploring the marked for products, plugins or SDK's enabling the

usage

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
of Word as a document composer.
Since document composing is a very common and basic task within EDM, most

of

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
the vendors declare that they can do this, even with the usage of Word. A
closer look reveals: none of them can do it!
That surprises me. Word is probably the most widely used editing front end
and the methods of reuse, described in Ann's book are crucial within
authoring complex documents. Is there no marked for this? Are there no EDM
products using Word as editing and composing tool this way?

Thanks 4 all contributions to this topic!
It became clear for me, that there is no “out of the box” solution for
handling fine-grained MS Word document fragments inside a CMS. But I think
with help of the new XML features (and maybe Smart Documents) coming with
Word 2003 it shouldn’t be a big deal to integrate Word into a native XML
(maybe publication oriented) CMS. The following should be done for this:
Enabling the user tagging his content for component definition (and
supplying metadata), adding a nice interface for component browsing &
inserting, defining the schema for such component- based documents and
developing a generic xslt- transformation file for composing the fragments.

Mirko

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[Erik M. Hartman - Hartman Communicatie BV]

Mirko (and others),

I now of at least one (Dutch) content management system that uses MS
Word as (the only) editor. Check www.osict.com.

With Word 2003 supporting XML others will follow, no doubt about it.

Met vriendelijke groet,


drs. Erik M. Hartman
erik-***@public.gmane.org

P.S. Bezoek het portaal Alles over content management

-------------------------------------
Communicatie in automatisering

Hartman Communicatie BV
Postbus 65
5300 AB Zaltbommel
[phone]

www.hartman-communicatie.nl
------------------------------------
*** This message is from Hartman Communicatie BV and may contain
confidential business information. It is intended for the addressee
only and may not be copied without our permission. If you are not
the intended recipient please contact the sender as soon as possible.
***


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: cms-list-admin-/***@public.gmane.org [mailto:cms-list-***@cms-list.org]
Namens Mirko Bulinsky
Verzonden: maandag 12 januari 2004 11:45
Aan: cms-list-/***@public.gmane.org
CC: rockley-lYrCJL+***@public.gmane.org; ***@skybuilders.com
Onderwerp: Re: [cms-list] structured content reuse

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
my client would like to reuse content within
its Enterprise Document Management System (EDM). For opportunistic reusing
he wants to work with Word 2003 since this is the enterprise standard.
I was exploring the marked for products, plugins or SDK's enabling the

usage

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
of Word as a document composer.
Since document composing is a very common and basic task within EDM, most

of

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
the vendors declare that they can do this, even with the usage of Word. A
closer look reveals: none of them can do it!
That surprises me. Word is probably the most widely used editing front end
and the methods of reuse, described in Ann's book are crucial within
authoring complex documents. Is there no marked for this? Are there no EDM
products using Word as editing and composing tool this way?

Thanks 4 all contributions to this topic!
It became clear for me, that there is no "out of the box" solution for
handling fine-grained MS Word document fragments inside a CMS. But I
think
with help of the new XML features (and maybe Smart Documents) coming
with
Word 2003 it shouldn't be a big deal to integrate Word into a native XML
(maybe publication oriented) CMS. The following should be done for this:
Enabling the user tagging his content for component definition (and
supplying metadata), adding a nice interface for component browsing &
inserting, defining the schema for such component- based documents and
developing a generic xslt- transformation file for composing the
fragments.

Mirko

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[Bastian Gerhard]

Hey Mirko,

Afaik both, Typo3 (http://www.typo3.org) and ENID (http://www.enid.de)
provide a WYSIWYG-editor with Microsoft's JScript capabilities and
therefor support the import/conversion of any Microsoft file format
such as word text or excel datasheets directly into HTML or XHTML/XML
on the fly. ENID is a commercial WCMS based on PHP, whereas Typo3 is
freeware with little blemishes (e.g. TypoScript) :)

Regards from Vienna, Austria.
Bastian


Am 12.01.2004 um 23:51 schrieb Erik M. Hartman - Hartman Communicatie

Post by Erik M. Hartman - Hartman Communicatie BV
Mirko (and others),
I now of at least one (Dutch) content management system that uses MS
Word as (the only) editor. Check www.osict.com.
With Word 2003 supporting XML others will follow, no doubt about it.

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[Manuel González Noriega]

Post by Bastian Gerhard
Hey Mirko,
on the fly. ENID is a commercial WCMS based on PHP, whereas Typo3 is
freeware with little blemishes (e.g. TypoScript) :)

No, no, Typo3 is open source software (GPL) available at not cost.

Typo3 IS NOT 'freeware', which is most usually propietary software
available at no cost

Let's avoid the confusion :)

http://typo3.com/Price___License.1244.0.html
--
Manuel González Noriega
Simplelógica, construcción web
URL: http://simplelogica.net
EMAIL: simplelogica-***@public.gmane.org
TELEFONO: ([phone]

Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/

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[Rob DeFelice]

Beg to differ on this one guys, I have used FatWIre
Content Server and this gives you everything you need
re Word integration and granular control over each
component.

Post by Mirko Bulinsky

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
my client would like to reuse content within
its Enterprise Document Management System (EDM).

For opportunistic reusing

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
he wants to work with Word 2003 since this is the

enterprise standard.

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
I was exploring the marked for products, plugins or

SDK's enabling the
usage

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
of Word as a document composer.
Since document composing is a very common and basic

task within EDM, most
of

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
the vendors declare that they can do this, even

with the usage of Word. A

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
closer look reveals: none of them can do it!
That surprises me. Word is probably the most widely

used editing front end

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
and the methods of reuse, described in Ann's book

are crucial within

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
authoring complex documents. Is there no marked for

this? Are there no EDM

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
products using Word as editing and composing tool

this way?
Thanks 4 all contributions to this topic!
It became clear for me, that there is no “out of the
box” solution for
handling fine-grained MS Word document fragments
inside a CMS. But I think
with help of the new XML features (and maybe Smart
Documents) coming with
Word 2003 it shouldn’t be a big deal to integrate
Word into a native XML
(maybe publication oriented) CMS. The following
Enabling the user tagging his content for component
definition (and
supplying metadata), adding a nice interface for
component browsing &
inserting, defining the schema for such component-
based documents and
developing a generic xslt- transformation file for
composing the fragments.
Mirko
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please trim your posts.

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
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[A C]

Rob,

I think you ought to mention that you work for FatWire, most other vendors posting to this list do that.


AC

Rob DeFelice <robdefelice-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Beg to differ on this one guys, I have used FatWIre
Content Server and this gives you everything you need
re Word integration and granular control over each
component.

--- Mirko Bulinsky wrote: > At

Post by Mirko Bulinsky

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
my client would like to reuse content within
its Enterprise Document Management System (EDM).

For opportunistic reusing

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
he wants to work with Word 2003 since this is the

enterprise standard.

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
I was exploring the marked for products, plugins or

SDK's enabling the
usage

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
of Word as a document composer.
Since document composing is a very common and basic

task within EDM, most
of

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
the vendors declare that they can do this, even

with the usage of Word. A

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
closer look reveals: none of them can do it!
That surprises me. Word is probably the most widely

used editing front end

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
and the methods of reuse, described in Ann's book

are crucial within

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
authoring complex documents. Is there no marked for

this? Are there no EDM

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
products using Word as editing and composing tool

this way?
Thanks 4 all contributions to this topic!
It became clear for me, that there is no “out of the
box” solution for
handling fine-grained MS Word document fragments
inside a CMS. But I think
with help of the new XML features (and maybe Smart
Documents) coming with
Word 2003 it shouldn’t be a big deal to integrate
Word into a native XML
(maybe publication oriented) CMS. The following
Enabling the user tagging his content for component
definition (and
supplying metadata), adding a nice interface for
component browsing &
inserting, defining the schema for such component-
based documents and
developing a generic xslt- transformation file for
composing the fragments.
Mirko
--
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please trim your posts.

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
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[Rob DeFelice]

If I wanted to do that maybe I would have used a less
obvious name, like my real one for example :)

Post by A C
I think you ought to mention that you work for
FatWire, most other vendors posting to this list do
that.
AC
Beg to differ on this one guys, I have used FatWIre
Content Server and this gives you everything you
need
re Word integration and granular control over each
component.
--- Mirko Bulinsky wrote: > At

Post by Mirko Bulinsky

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
my client would like to reuse content within
its Enterprise Document Management System (EDM).

For opportunistic reusing

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
he wants to work with Word 2003 since this is the

enterprise standard.

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
I was exploring the marked for products, plugins

or

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
SDK's enabling the
usage

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
of Word as a document composer.
Since document composing is a very common and

basic

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
task within EDM, most
of

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
the vendors declare that they can do this, even

with the usage of Word. A

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
closer look reveals: none of them can do it!
That surprises me. Word is probably the most

widely

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
used editing front end

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
and the methods of reuse, described in Ann's book

are crucial within

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
authoring complex documents. Is there no marked

for

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
this? Are there no EDM

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
products using Word as editing and composing tool

this way?
Thanks 4 all contributions to this topic!
It became clear for me, that there is no “out of

the

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
box” solution for
handling fine-grained MS Word document fragments
inside a CMS. But I think
with help of the new XML features (and maybe Smart
Documents) coming with
Word 2003 it shouldn’t be a big deal to integrate
Word into a native XML
(maybe publication oriented) CMS. The following
Enabling the user tagging his content for

component

Post by Mirko Bulinsky
definition (and
supplying metadata), adding a nice interface for
component browsing &
inserting, defining the schema for such component-
based documents and
developing a generic xslt- transformation file for
composing the fragments.
Mirko
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Post by A C
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
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Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
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[Paddy Kalathur]

We are in the process of suggesting open source content management systems
for one of our clients .
Want to know which of the open source CMS's have a strong developer and user
community ?
We believe that a large and active community ensures the success of a open
source CMS .

Thanks,
Paddy Kalathur


This e-mail has been scanned for viruses.


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[David Boroditsky]

Being the owner of a Zope/Python shop I can attest to the strong and
helpful developer community that we've made use of, and participate in.
The Python programming language is also becoming an increasingly
popular language.

David
--
David Boroditsky
President
Emergence by Design

mailto:david-rTBIYgqZ+***@public.gmane.org
http://www.emergence.com

phone: [phone] ext. 225
toll free: 1.866.860.2666
--

Post by Paddy Kalathur
We are in the process of suggesting open source content management systems
for one of our clients .
Want to know which of the open source CMS's have a strong developer and user
community ?
We believe that a large and active community ensures the success of a open
source CMS .
Thanks,
Paddy Kalathur
This e-mail has been scanned for viruses.
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[Kim Bækgaard]

Another very good alternative is the PHP/MySQL based Typo3 (www.typo3.com
and www.typo3.org), which too has a very strong and active community

Regards
Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: cms-list-admin-/***@public.gmane.org [mailto:cms-list-***@cms-list.org] On
Behalf Of David Boroditsky
Sent: 13. januar 2004 22:52
To: Cms-List-***@public.gmane.org; Paddy Kalathur
Subject: Re: [cms-list] Open Source CMS with strong user community

Being the owner of a Zope/Python shop I can attest to the strong and helpful
developer community that we've made use of, and participate in.
The Python programming language is also becoming an increasingly popular
language.

David
--
David Boroditsky
President
Emergence by Design

mailto:david-rTBIYgqZ+***@public.gmane.org
http://www.emergence.com

phone: [phone] ext. 225
toll free: 1.866.860.2666
--

Post by Paddy Kalathur
We are in the process of suggesting open source content management
systems for one of our clients .
Want to know which of the open source CMS's have a strong developer
and user community ?
We believe that a large and active community ensures the success of a
open source CMS .
Thanks,
Paddy Kalathur
This e-mail has been scanned for viruses.
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[Erik M. Hartman - Hartman Communicatie BV]

Paddy,

Please check http://www.oscom.org/matrix/index.html or
http://www.cmsreview.com/OpenSource/Directory.html for a listing.

For strong communities take a look at:

http://cocoon.apache.org/ - http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/ -
http://www.hippo.nl/EN/Home/Home/index.html

www.Zope.org - www.Plone.org

www.MMBase.org

Also check http://www.midgard-project.org/.

Good luck!

Met vriendelijke groet,


drs. Erik M. Hartman
erik-***@public.gmane.org

P.S. Bezoek het portaal Alles over content management

-------------------------------------
Communicatie in automatisering

Hartman Communicatie BV
Postbus 65
5300 AB Zaltbommel
[phone]

www.hartman-communicatie.nl
------------------------------------
*** This message is from Hartman Communicatie BV and may contain
confidential business information. It is intended for the addressee
only and may not be copied without our permission. If you are not
the intended recipient please contact the sender as soon as possible.
***


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: cms-list-admin-/***@public.gmane.org [mailto:cms-list-***@cms-list.org]
Namens Paddy Kalathur
Verzonden: dinsdag 13 januari 2004 22:03
Aan: cms-list-/***@public.gmane.org
Onderwerp: [cms-list] Open Source CMS with strong user community

We are in the process of suggesting open source content management
systems
for one of our clients .
Want to know which of the open source CMS's have a strong developer and
user
community ?
We believe that a large and active community ensures the success of a
open
source CMS .

Thanks,
Paddy Kalathur


This e-mail has been scanned for viruses.


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[David Wheeler]

Post by Paddy Kalathur
We are in the process of suggesting open source content management systems
for one of our clients .
Want to know which of the open source CMS's have a strong developer and user
community ?
We believe that a large and active community ensures the success of a open
source CMS .

The leading, actively maintained and developed open-source CMSs include:

Bricolage - http://www.bricolage.cc/ (See also
http://www.kineticode.com/bricolage/)

Plone - http://www.plone.org/

Midgard - http://www.midgard-project.org/

OpenCMS - http://www.opencms.org/

HTH,

David


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[Greg Stark]

Matt,

Your client's request is not a usual one (at least from my experience).
The scenario you provided as an example seems a bit extreme, but none
the less we have had numerous requests for this type of functionality
and are able to handle them very nicely within our CMS.

This should be a very straight forward capability for mid-range to
high-end CMS systems (likely many low-end CMS systems as well). Sharing
(or multi-parenting) content is especially common in CMS systems that
were designed with Knowledge Management, Web Development or e-Learning
in mind, as each of these areas tends to have significant needs for
viewing content via multiple categorizations or linked into multiple
areas of a site.

My detailed experience with other CMS systems is limited, but from what
I have seen the user experience for sharing content into various
locations can vary significantly. Our system uses a server side
clipboard approach that allows the user to copy individual pieces of
content or entire sections and then share (or duplicate) them to other
areas of the site.

The interface that enables this feature will likely be more critical
(enable or inhibit use) to the customer than how the back-end system
handles the content. This is not to say that IT won't require the
back-end system to handle the sharing of content elegantly (and without
excess use of resources).

Hope this helps!

------------------------------------------
Gregory M. Stark
VP of Marketing
[phone]
[phone] (cell)
www.ittrium.com

-----Original Message-----
Message: 23
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:18:44 -0000
From: "Matt Hopgood" <Mhopgood-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <cms-list-/***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [cms-list] Multi-surfacing of articles within a site and
replication of site fragments

Hello,
=20
This is my first post, so forgive me if you've covered this topic before
or I'm simply rambling.
=20
My headaches are being caused by: Multi-surfacing of articles within a
site and replication of site fragments.
=20
I'll ask my questions about these issues seperately and try to be
concise.
=20
1. Multi-surfacing of content.
=20
Explanation - An article is produced on 'Coffee' and lives in the
'Beverages' section of a site. However, the front-end information
architecture of the site is based around topics and categories that
overlap in a matrix fashion and so our article on 'Coffee' also exists
in; Breakfast drinks, Stimulants and 'Dark heady drinks'. So in total
our single article is displayed in the front-end in four different
locations albeit with differing contexts.
=20
I have two questions:
=20
- Is this a normal and straightforward action for most content
management systems?
=20
- Is there a user experience aspect to this in respect to content
duplication (and are there many site which follow this model)?
=20
2. Replication of site fragments
=20
This is an extention of of the previous scenario which replicates not
simply single articles but fragments of the site. For example, our
'Coffee' article is now an entire section, consisting a 'Coffee
homepage', four 'Coffe related sub-home pages' and 25 different 'Coffee
articles'. In this scenario this entire site section is found in four
differing locations in the front-end information architecture.
=20
Questions:
=20
- Has anyone come across this before?
=20
I'm looking for some help in responding to what feels like slightly odd
client requests.
=20
Thanks
=20
Matt Hopgood


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[Adam Gaffin]

Post by Ann Rockley
You are correct that word processors tend to make authors
think "paper" as
we author while web/HTML editors make us think "web" as we author. We
really need a third type of editor that lets us think
content. This doesn't
really exist yet. Forms come the closest, but they do not

Sure it does. It's called Atex, circa 1980.

Atex systems of that vintage force you to separate content from format -
because all you have is a green (or white)-on-black screen. Yet it has a ton
of fields for filling out meta data and if you really want to do something
granular, there are all sorts of fancy codes you can wrap around specific
bits of content for later processing (plus: the keyboard doubles as a handy
self-protection device).

Way back in 1981, I worked on an Atex-like system (ECRM) that output content
both for print and for the dozens (well, a couple dozen, anyway) people
who'd splurged on 300-baud modems and could read our content on CompuServe.

I'm not arguing that people should go back to Atex systems (no matter how
fun it was to forge instant messages in it). But, models for format-less
content production exist. And while the Atex back end of that era might be
cumbersome and prone to crashing (right on deadline, typically), the front
end was, despite all those bizarro extra keys on the keyboard, simple enough
for even the drunkest sports reporter to use to file on deadline.


Adam Gaffin
Executive Editor, Network World Fusion
agaffin-***@public.gmane.org / [phone] / http://www.nwfusion.com
"I programmed my robotic dog to bite the guy who delivers the electronic
mail." -- Kibo





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[joseph martins]

Speaking of Atex-like systems Adam,

A few newspapers I recall were so fond of their Atex and CText systems,
their RFPs specifically required that certain key-combinations be replicated
in MS Word. Oh the hoops we had to jump through to satisfy those
requirements.

After spending a week in their shoes, I understood why they liked the
existing front-end so much. Mouseless baby.

Joe

Post by Adam Gaffin
Sure it does. It's called Atex, circa 1980.
Atex systems of that vintage force you to separate content from format -
because all you have is a green (or white)-on-black screen.

...

Post by Adam Gaffin
And while the Atex back end of that era might be
cumbersome and prone to crashing (right on deadline, typically), the front
end was, despite all those bizarro extra keys on the keyboard, simple enough
for even the drunkest sports reporter to use to file on deadline.
Adam Gaffin

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